« Luddite | Main | Mill and Nietzsche on Frum »

November 07, 2003

TrackBack

TrackBack URL for this entry:
http://www.typepad.com/services/trackback/6a00d83451601c69e200e55022a27c8833

Listed below are links to weblogs that reference Dead Right:

» Holbo Vs. Frum from Matthew Yglesias
John Holbo really goes to town. For what it's worth, I think conservatives (as opposed to libertarians) shouldn't even try to philosophize since any general doctrine you could possibly come up with is going to wind up looking a lot... [Read More]

» David Frum Takedown from marginalia.org
Extraordinary (and long) hammering of David Frum’s Dead Right. The funny thing about this book is: it isn’t nearly as bad I just made it sound. I don’t think Frum is obsessed with beards or anything, actually. He sometimes seems like ... [Read More]

» Yea, though I walk from Electrolite
through the valley of the shadow of data disasters, business trips, World Fantasy Conventions, and exciting varieties of minor illness,... [Read More]

» It’s the economy, stupid! We need to cannibalize the dead! from Chrononautic Log
More interesting stuff from John of John & Belle, in this case a review of David Frum’s Dead Right. I fully sympathize with John’s curiosity as to what conservatism looks like in all its glorious and unalloyed philosophical ideal purity... [Read More]

» It’s the economy, stupid! We need to cannibalize the dead! from Chrononautic Log
More interesting stuff from John of John & Belle, in this case a review of David Frum’s Dead Right. I fully sympathize with John’s curiosity as to what conservatism looks like in all its glorious and unalloyed philosophical ideal purity... [Read More]

» John Holbo Deconstructs David Frum from Discourse.net
I don’t know if this essay by John Holbo [link corrected] deconstructing David Frum’s book is right, because I haven’t read the book it attacks. (And, if truth be told, I’m especially unwilling to jump to conclusions because I u... [Read More]

» Political Philosophers on Frum from Now That Everyone Else Has One
Speaking of David Frum, read this long rebuttal to his book if you're really bored. I didn't have the time... [Read More]

» More Assorted Reading from Three-Toed Sloth
Umberto Eco talks in Alexandria about the future of books. For something completely different, Dan Sperber on the future of writing. Peter Bergen tears apart the theories of Laurie Mylroie, who believes Saddam Hussein was responsible for both attacks o... [Read More]

» More Assorted Reading from Three-Toed Sloth
Umberto Eco talks in Alexandria about the future of books. For something completely different, Dan Sperber on the future of writing. Peter Bergen tears apart the theories of Laurie Mylroie, who believes Saddam Hussein was responsible for both attacks o... [Read More]

» Orwell and Moral Proportion from The Audhumlan Conspiracy
John Holbo from John and Belle Have a Blog has a sequel to his earlier post on David Frum. The best part is his section in the middle about Orwell's sense of moral proportion: At any rate, the fact that... [Read More]

» Dead Right and An End To Evil from Matthew Yglesias
Just read David Frum's Dead Right. It's a really good book, very well-written account of the travails of ideological (as opposed to merely "pro-business") conservatism in the post-Reagan era. It's also interesting that it's clear from The Right Man and... [Read More]

» Conservatism, democracy, Tolkien from Chrononautic Log
This essay by Philip Agre, “What is conservatism and what is wrong with it?” gets to the heart of the place where I stopped stone dead in trying to meet Gene Wolfe halfway. (It’s also a useful gloss on John Holbo’s takedown of D... [Read More]

» On Markets and Conservatism from Meandering Vaguely Around Timnah
Linking Don Herzog to John Holbo. [Read More]

» Koan. from Long story; short pier
Kyogen Osho said, it is like a man up in a tree hanging from a branch by his mouth. His hands grasp no bough. His feet rest on no limb. Someone appears under the tree and asks him, what is... [Read More]

» Spiritual awareness. from Wax Banks
In John Holbo's minor classic of David Frum-bashing, 'Dead Right' (which this post really isn't about at all but still let's go), he enjoys a delicious irony, beginning with a quote from Frum's Dead Right book: "Neoconservatives may roll their [Read More]

» Memes go to war(!), 'aestheticizing conservatism down', and other small matters. from Wax Banks
Heading over to Michelle Malkin's website for my weekly dose of schadenfreude I saw the oddest logo: Apparently Ed Morrissey and other right-wing bloggers are miffed at the name-calling that, in their view, passes for argument in some parts of [Read More]

Comments

Timothy Burke

Well, nobody could complain that you didn't take him seriously enough to engage him! Splendid, interesting read, and I think you've described not just Frum's problems, but the underlying incoherency of one species or strain of contemporary American conservatism, a kind of bastard child of moral conservatism and economic libertarianism.

Russell Arben Fox

Good heavens, man. You have a book on your hands here. A good book, too. I think you're wrong about a lot, but I think Frum is wrong about much, much more, so that's cool with me. I'd buy your book. Why the hell are you writing a blog?

Chun the Unavoidable

I can't believe I read the whole thing.

Cosma

What Fox said (except for the bit about you being wrong about a lot).

JP

Yes, that was very well done. Thanks.

Sounds to me like Frum is just hitching his cart to natural law; i.e. objective truth and morality are things that all people can just instinctively sense, and that aren't based on reason. Anyone who tries to test them with logic is just trying to lead people astray from what they know in their hearts to be true. Or something like that.

Russell Arben Fox

JP, the very idea of "natural law" is based on reason (Aristotle, Aquinas, and all that). The idea is that, if we look at nature rationally, with an eye to discovering its order, then a certain natural right will be (objectively) manifest. I haven't read anything by Frum, but if John's massive attack on the guy's writings is at all accurate, then the very last thing guiding his "philosophy" is natural law, as traditionally understood. It's closer to, as you say, a kind of instinct, though maybe of an "aesthetic" sort.

As John and bunch of us have discussed at length before, contemporary American conservatism has serious tensions in it. Older (and more philosophically coherent) forms of conservatism have been mostly marginalized. Frum's book sounds to me like an attempt to come up with some new way of resolving these tensions, and not a very successful one.

xcentrik

Just one additional factoid about the Donner party - some of its members, who organized party that attempted to break through the snow and find help - actually murdered and devoured their Native American guides. What do you suppose this says about the conservative approach?

Grant Gould

Sounds to me as though Mr. Frum has never bothered to read the Turner Thesis -- you know, the whole "Frontier in American History" thing, and the fact that when, in 1910 we definitevely ran out of frontier, we also ran out of those beardless workers he's so keen on.

Absent a frontier -- in essence, a source of arbitrarily hard problems and the opportunity to make a new life by risking your life to face them -- naturally people are going to stop being hard-bitten frontiersmen. No more Donner Passes, no more Donner Parties. Like, duh.

But modern conservatives are scared of the notion that the American moral universe has changed, ever. Not, mind you, that they've any real interest in potential new frontiers and Donner Passes presented by, eg, unfettered economic and network globalisation or private spaceflight, that might return some of that frontier risk-your-life-to-change-your-life spirit. Just that they're scared that it's gone and, my gosh, that it might have been important.

In other words, they've accepted the underpinnings of the modern-liberal philosophy -- people packed together without anywhere else to go need democracy and strong authoritative leadership; rights may come later. They just haven't worked through the implications yet, because they're scared.

And oddly, they expect people to vote for them as if they had ideas of their own.
--G

Tom Runnacles

Marvellous stuff.

I too try to read (non-libertarian) righty types quite a bit, in large part because I genuinely don't know where they're coming from - what, at base, motivates their hostility to wheelchair ramps etc.

It is indeed often hard to shift the thought that a basically aesthetic preference is doing the real work.

Still, it'd be handy if somebody felt able to recommend a recent(ish) book which does a better job than it seems Frum manages.

NB - nothing by Roger Scruton, please.

roger

Nice analysis. I have been working on an essay on what I regard as the transformation of conservative thought from 1870 to 1939 -- roughly, from James Fitzjames Stephen to Hayek. I think Stephen, who has been obscured over the years, is a pretty clear ancestor of Frum -- it was Stephen who put together the case for liberal (as in, classically liberal) economics, a morally coercive state, and imperialism. With some transformations -- for instance, the change from imperialism to anti-communism in the post World War II period -- I think that is a basic conservative template.

Stephen makes his case by massively attacking Mill's On Liberty -- a sacred text among libertarians.

It seems to me, however, that you take Frum's talk about risk too much as the general consensus about risk among conservatives. What Hayek did, and Schumpeter, and Frank Knight, was to reinstate risk as a creative function. It isn't only that risk keeps families together out of fear -- it also operates, in the economic sphere, to free up capital for creativity. This is at the heart of a contradiction that conservatives have never quite mastered. If capitalism sustains itself by embracing risk, and thereby condemning in succession great sequences of economic activity to desuetude -- creative destruction, as Schumpeter calls it -- isn't that the sort of thing to shake the discipline that, for instance, keeps families together? That a corporation moves its employees around and mingles females and males in its attempt to achieve higher ROI could have more to do with divorce than the state's coddling entitlements -- in which case, by Stephen and Frum's logic, you have to turn to... the state. You have to make divorce legally harder. This is the great and deadly problem with attempting to come up with a coherent limit on state power from a conservative point of view -- liberalizing an economy necessitates more moral coercion on the part of the state. But moral coercion isn't economically neutral: ban porno, and you are soon mandating censorhip software on videos, which is an infringement on commerce.

Scott Harris

I don't know about Frum, but I can offer my view of conservatism. To many conservatives, its really a matter of scale. Policies that we would support on a local level raise suspicion on a national level.

Frum is correct in that conservatives think we have lost something. And that something is the accountability to and from local civil society. The one-size-fits-all practice imposed by judicial fiat undermines individual responsibility and freedom.

Frum is also correct when he says many conservatives wouldn't care a whit about economic policy if our society could regain the local autonomy it once had.

Religious conservatives in particular are very suspicious of centralized power. This traces back to the Protestant Reformation, and the rejection of the central control of the Catholic Church. The deep distrust of centralized governmental authority has deep roots in the Protestant religious history of the country.

Deeply religious protestant Christians talk about these things. And just as the Pilgrims left England to exercise individual freedom, Protestant Evangelicals are very leery of a judiciary that imposes its values on national society by fiat - without being held accountable to the general public.

Social conservatives believe Capitalism is superior primarily because it requires individual freedom. Individual Freedom is the core value, not capitalism itself. To many social conservatives, if we could devise a system of equitably sharing responsibilities and benefits that could somehow be innoculated against 1) the tendency toward tyranny, and 2) the degradation of morality, then we would gladly sign on.

But, history and experience tells us that such a system does not yet exist, and capiatalism, pitting competing interest against each other is the best way to balance out the competing, sometimes beneficial, but also sometimes malevolent passions of mankind.

This is in stark contrast to those economic conservatives who really do fool themselves into believing that economic Darwinism is actually desirable. Social conservatives, on the other hand prefer a kind of collective Darwinism whereby 1)local societies can compete with one another, 2)individuals have the freedom to choose from a multitude of different types of local society, and 3) having chosen to be a member of a particular group, the individual enjoys the social benefits and protection of that society, but is also held accountable to it as well, and finally, 4) that local society has the political rights and power to expel and/or punish and individual that willingly receives the benefits, but is unwilling to be held accountable to that society.

The inherent differences between Social conservatives and left wing authoritarians are two-fold. 1) Social conservatives want to limit their societies to small local areas, while left wing authoritarians want their values imposed at large on the country as a whole. 2) The fundamental values of social conservatives are qualitatively different than those of leftists authoritarians.

This is why Libertarian ideology has so little sway with social conservatives. Social conservative want accountability and socialism on a local scale, but freedom on the grand scale. Leftists want unfettered freedom from accountability to their neighbor, but enforced standards on a grand scale.

This is also why avowed libertarians, who I classify as anarchists, are confused by both groups. Libertarians don't understand the difference in scale between the two groups.

And the classical economic conservatives. These are the ones who could live with slavery for everyone but themselves. They are the pure Capitalist Darwinians. This is what Frum was describing in his Donner party illustration, but that kind of conservatism will never be a majority in America.

Scott Harris

Of course, my above explanation of social conservatism is not pefect. There are some Social conservatives who do want their values imposed at large. See Prohibition for a relevant example. But Prohibition didn't work, just as the War on Drugs is not working.

And the problem lies in the contradictory impulses in all people. Social conservatives really do believe that their values are best, and sometimes forget that one must freely choose those values for them to have any lasting effect.

So, for example, supporting the decriminalization of Drugs on a national scale just flies in the face of moral beliefs - especially when our current judicial environment instructs us that imposing moral laws on a local level is not currently possible. And either unwilling or unable to reconcile the belief in freedom with some morally restrictive concepts, social conservatives sometimes opt for the morally restrictive codes at large.

This is also why some social conservatives can live with some of the social programs we have. Because the effects of these programs are acceptable at a local level. The internal conflict comes with ceding power to central government authority, not with the actual benefits enjoyed by recipients of the programs at a local level.

So we get back to the internal conflict we all have with reconciling our competing priorities even within ourselves. The result is inconsistency - a common human condition.

Avedon

This is magnificent. Please run it through a spell-checker and proofread it so we can quote and post it everywhere.

Realish

But at the heart of it is a sort of proto-cognitive itch; a sensibility, or feeling, or subconscious reflex.

This just nails it. In discussions with conservatives (of which I have all too many) I always come away with the same nagging sense that I'm attempting to reason them away from a deep-seated gut feeling. This accounts both for their self-described moral "clarity" and their immense defensiveness and paranoia. They don't "believe" conservative "philosophy"--they are conservatives. It is viscera you attack when you argue with them, it is their very identity, and they react accordingly.

It's particularly obvious with something like homosexuality--the reasoned arguments against it, such as they are, collapse into incoherence almost immediately. But at root is that aesthetic preference, that "proto-cognitive itch," that homosexuality is just icky.

So too with compromise and diplomacy in foreign policy. Icky. So too with taking money away from me to give to some poor no-account black single mother. Icky.

But here's the rub: the fact that these positions are rooted in aesthetic preference makes stronger, not weaker, in today's media culture. Liberals persist in clinging to reasons and rationales when there's no real argument happening. What's happening is a competion of symbols, of myths--what else can you get across 30 seconds but a symbol? Conservatives have mastered that language, the language of connotation, aesthetic preference, myth.

As you point out, it is the only language they have--any attempt to fashion it into a coherent philosophy crumbles--but to their great benefit, it is the dominant language in our culture. We live in a sea of visceral aesthetic groping, and the conservatives are kicking ass by waving pretty images in front of the public. Remember: Schwartzenegger won.

(This is all broad brush, of course, but hey, you started it.)

jholbo

I'll just jump in here and respond to Realish. You are quite right about me starting it. I'm feeling a little bit chagrined. But that's OK. The thing is: I don't actually believe that the only language conservatives have is one consisting of irrational aesthetic groping gestures. For example, I think Frum is quite a smart guy - with whom I disagree about almost everything. But that doesn't make me incapable of recognizing a very high degree of rationality. A very lively writer is Frum. But he (and others) have a very definite and disheartening tendency to slip into something that is really intellectually beneath them. Mistaking shallow aesthetic knee-jerk reflexes for deep philosophical impulses. Frum cannot distinguish the decline of Western Civilization from hair styles he doesn't like. I wish he would just cut out being lazy in that way. Not because I think he would then melt away but because it's a waste of his time and mine. I think if he cut out pretending everything he finds culturally disagreeable is objectively a threat to society he would turn into something far more intellectually formidable - and that would be fine by me. Mill says the true liberal prays for enlightened enemies. (I'm feeling bad about hammering the man. Can you tell? Like you say, I did start it.)

OK, now it may sound like I'm contradicting myself. Because I do say - and I do believe, and you have correctly picked up in it, Realish - that it's precisely the shallow knee-jerks that are at the heart of it all here. So what am I saying, even half-defending Frum?

I guess it comes to this. I don't have a lot of patience for cultural and social conservatism. But when I argue against such, I would prefer my opponent not utterly lower his guard with a lot of Donner party nostalgia. I'm sure Frum can do better than that. And I would rather argue against the better case.

jholbo

No, that's a terrible lie. It's fun to whack people with objections whenever they foolishly lower their guard. An irritable mental gesture on my part, do you think? Ah, human frailty.

Realish

And I would rather argue against the better case.

I commend you; I would as well.

However, we both should keep in mind that our preference for conceptual parrying is not shared by a great mass of the public. Most people do not pay close attention to politics. They witness a series of gestures, staged Kabuki-esque rituals, and above all image after image.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/031030/480/cdh10310300210
Right now, the conservative movement in this country is extraordinarily disciplined in their myth-making, and at least a measure of the credit goes to the personalization and psychologism (in the figure of Bush) of their message. We hear more about GW's 'fortitude' and 'resolve' than we do about his... y'know... 'plan'. We're told he won't waver.

A previous poster mentioned a contradiction that I think is central to conservatism, at least the hybrid sort Frum advocates. They want to preserve traditional virtues and habits on the one hand--for instance, preserve the sanctity of marriage--and on the other claim to revile any restraint on free market capital flow. But free capital flow makes the preservation of restrictive traditions manifestly more difficult. It's not only capital that flows. Transportation has become cheap and easy and available to every class. Jobs flow and people with them; capital has made us mobile.

So as you point out, conforming to the aesthetic Frum articulates will eventually mean deliberately imposed economic inefficiency or hardship. People will have to be re-rooted by scarcity. But as long as we have the machine, we will use it. In the long haul, the incompatible aims of conservativism will always resolve against tradition and in favor of avarice.

I'm sure Frum is a smart guy, but there's a reason your search for a cohesive (and defensible) conservative philosophy has taken such a plaintive tone. There is still a lot of gasbagging about the preservation of Judeo-Christian culture, but many virtues once imposed primarily by want are eroding in the steady flow of capital and population streams and nobody seems genuninely desirous to stop it.

I guess the only point in my previous post is this: the lack of philosophical rigor doesn't seem to be doing conservatives much harm. Perhaps the contrary.

Russell Arben Fox

Scott wrote: "The inherent differences between social conservatives and left-wing authoritarians are...social conservatives want to limit their societies to small local areas, while left wing authoritarians want their values imposed at large on the country as a whole," and "the fundamental values of social conservatives are qualitatively different than those of leftists."

Not that I wish to defend "left-wing authoritarianism," but since a lot of people tend to place contemporary communitarianism in that quadrant, I guess I'll bite. First, as regards imposing one's values "on the country as a whole": the size of the community which can be plausibly held to particular social standards (ranging from simple law and order to much deeper bonds of civic morality) depends entirely upon relevant criteria to that standard. Obviously, a social code which depends upon regular individual interaction and participation to survive cannot be effectively stretched beyond separate localities, and intelligent communitarian thinkers recognize that. But not all social standards require equal levels, or equal forms, of participation; some can plausibly be tied to other criteria (such as sharing a common history or language, or more widely distributable civic rituals like voting) which can be extended over a larger base. A national community is a misnomer in regards to some things, surely, but not in regards to all things. Second, regarding the "fundamental" qualitative difference between leftist and conservative values: I suspect you're assuming that leftists are secularists. But not all of them are...and indeed, if we're using these terms ("leftist," "conservative," etc.) in their broadest ideological sense--which, given the whole point of this thread, I assume we are--then I doubt even the majority of them are.

roger

If this discussion were being held in 1968, the references to Burke would come fast and furious. Interestingly, they are largely absent now. I wonder if this is a symptom of the turning of American conservatism?

The Burkean point of view -- the view espoused by the first big popularizer of conservatism, William Buckley -- is that the attempt to weave a political theory that fits all societies is at the root of liberalism. Burke's idea was that politics is supremely about circumstances -- which is why he could support the American revolution and abhor the French, make the case for the organic economy of India against the proto-freemarket people and advocate free markets in Ireland. What is needed is a sensibility, not a theory. This isn't a call for pragmatism -- pragmatism is about what works, Burkean traditionalism is about the effects of what has worked.

The complete collapse of this strain of conservatism is evident in the discussions pro or con about Iraq. Burke thought constitution mongers were laughable, and pernicious. He hated the idea of theorists imposing an order from above on a nation that had created an intrinsic order. But from David Brooks to the staff of the Weekly Standard, the idee du jour is that robust constitution mongering is just the ticket. The only Burkean conservative left, really, is George Will -- and he is a Burkean only every third month or so.

This is a curious phenomenon. I don't really have an explanation.

Team Canada

Wow, that was intense. Good stuff

Hal O'Brien

No... Burke isn't being mentioned because he hasn't been tuaght in the schools for a generation now. Whether such a degradation of standards has arisen from a choking off of tax revenues per capita for public education, I leave to the reader to decide.

Mark Liberman

Thanks!

This made me laugh harder, and learn more, than anything else I've read in quite a while.

I was moved to suggest in
http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/000099.html
that such reviews should be called "frumming", on the model of "fisking." I doubt the term will catch on, but at least you have the satisfaction of knowing that someone thought your piece should be the archtype for a new genre.

Ophelia Benson

"This just nails it. In discussions with conservatives (of which I have all too many) I always come away with the same nagging sense that I'm attempting to reason them away from a deep-seated gut feeling. This accounts both for their self-described moral "clarity" and their immense defensiveness and paranoia. They don't "believe" conservative "philosophy"--they are conservatives."

So you're saying conservatives are essentially emotivist in their politics, right? I have a running argument with a convinced emotivist (not a conservative), and he's done more to convince me than I have to convince him - which I find a bit disheartening. Emotivism ought to be wrong, precisely because it does just get you people who insist, eyes bulging, that homosexuality is just wrong, period, that's all there is to it.

roger

"No... Burke isn't being mentioned because he hasn't been tuaght in the schools for a generation now"... Uh, exactly. Since around 1968.

Which is about the same time that Nixon's Southern strategy kicked in, come to think of it. Perhaps the absence of Burke has less to do with "choking off education" than with the discomfort of populist conservatives -- of the Pat Buchanon (sp?) type -- with the kind of class distinctions upon which Burke rested his particular brand of politics. Hence the way in which contemporary conservatives hammer at liberals for being "elite" -- a term of honor within the old school of conservatism. They protest too much in order to cover up a division that goes a long way back into the division that make up their own history.

Ophelia Benson

Is that why they do it? (Is that why conservatives call leftists 'elitists'?) I thought it was simply because it works. Just as it works - however inexplicably - to pretend that Bush is somehow not of the elite, simply because he pretends to talk like an ol' ranch hand.

The comments to this entry are closed.

Email John & Belle

  • he.jpgjholbo-at-mac-dot-com
  • she.jpgbbwaring-at-yahoo-dot-com

Google J&B


J&B Archives

Hey Kids! Free Plato Book!

S&O @ J&B

  • www.flickr.com
    This is a Flickr badge showing items in a set called Squid and Owl. Make your own badge here.

Reason and Persuasion Illustrations

  • www.flickr.com

J&B Have A Tipjar


  • Search Now:

  • Buy a couple books, we get a couple bucks.
Blog powered by TypePad

J&B Have A Comment Policy

  • This edited version of our comment policy is effective as of May 10, 2006.

    By publishing a comment to this blog you are granting its proprietors, John Holbo and Belle Waring, the right to republish that comment in any way shape or form they see fit.

    Severable from the above, and to the extent permitted by law, you hereby agree to the following as well: by leaving a comment you grant to the proprietors the right to release ALL your comments to this blog under this Creative Commons license (attribution 2.5). This license allows copying, derivative works, and commercial use.

    Severable from the above, and to the extent permitted by law, you are also granting to this blog's proprietors the right to so release any and all comments you may make to any OTHER blog at any time. This is retroactive. By publishing ANY comment to this blog, you thereby grant to the proprietors of this blog the right to release any of your comments (made to any blog, at any time, past, present or future) under the terms of the above CC license.

    Posting a comment constitutes consent to the following choice of law and choice of venue governing any disputes arising under this licensing arrangement: such disputes shall be adjudicated according to Canadian law and in the courts of Singapore.

    If you do NOT agree to these terms, for pete's sake do NOT leave a comment. It's that simple.

  • Confused by our comment policy?

    We're testing a strong CC license as a form of troll repellant. Does that sound strange? Read this thread. (I know, it's long. Keep scrolling. Further. Further. Ah, there.) So basically, we figure trolls will recognize that selling coffee cups and t-shirts is the best revenge, and will keep away. If we're wrong about that, at least someone can still sell the cups and shirts. (Sigh.)