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January 27, 2005

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Comments

Rich Puchalsky

There's a lot to react to here, but I'll start with this Hesse quote:

"I can make you understand my association, but I cannot so affect a single one of you that my private association will become a valid symbol for you in your turn, a mechanism which infallibly reacts on call and always follows the same course."

You use this as a preliminary for criticizing the "feuilletonistic antipodes of this attitude" as exemplified by Judith Butler. But what if the original idea from Hesse is impossible? Isn't it a standard claim of postmodernism -- or not even postmodernism, of cultural relativism -- that there are no "legitimate", universally comprehensible associations that work across subcultures? If Judith Butler were to take this idea a little further, and say that all associations are really personal, then there really would be nothing different in her use of her private associations than in the supposedly more rigorous use of universal ones. These universal ones would be, instead, merely those popularized to a narrow part of the population by a certain class-based educational system etc.

To the extent that there is some truth to this idea -- and I think there must be *some* truth to it, as no one has yet come up with a rigorous schema of poetic associations even for a single culture -- I don't see your distinction in value between honest and dishonest feuilletonism. If you're writing poetry, then the success of your associations are judged by their success. If you're writing analysis, then the success of your analysis is judged by its rigor. If you're mashing them up such that it's bad writing *and* bad analysis, what good is it? Is it any better for anyone that you are doing it honestly, in full self-knowledge, rather than hiding it from yourself or others?

I suggest that you mean as "honest feuilletonism" is what I've previously referred to as a commitment to wittiness as the highest authorial value. If done well, this results in works that are witty, which is of course valuable in itself. But wit tends to exist in inverse proportion to either analytic or artistic substance.

Scott McLemee

Hesse and Krauss end up defining the term by reference to the worst (or at least the most mediocre) cases. Kracauer's "The Mass Ornament," or some of Benjamin's short pieces, also count as feuilletons, and they are substantial essays rather than middlebrow junk. And Barthes's "Mythologies" are quite feuilletonistic, when you get right down to it.

No "commitment to wittiness as the highest authorial value" in any of these cases.

Rich Puchalsky

Well, I certainly can't argue with someone who really knows the subject about what a feuilleton is. All I can do is point out the passage in John Holbo's attempted generalization of the concept to blog posts that made me think that wittiness might really be the quality under consideration:

"The cardinal vice of the bad feuilleton is not admitting you are a feuilleton - say, because you are pretending to be rigorous philosophy, or scholarship. Admitting your true nature is the first step. (If two thirds of the books in literary studies were turned into articles, and two thirds of the articles - and 95% of those with silly titles - were demoted to blog posts, the whole business might perk right up. A blog post with a silly title can be good and clever.)"

A blog post with a silly title may or may not be middlebrow -- some such posts are substantial essays. But "good and clever" equates, for me and in the context of blogging, to wittiness.

Jonathan

Let me preface this comment by saying that I know and respect Kim Emery. Your comment about her work here is startlingly inane. I wonder when exactly the notion of reading something before passing judgement on it became extinct in the blogosphere. She has a book from the SUNY-Press; I expect that your ILL could get it for you (if they don't prohibit works with "lesbian" in the title). There's also an essay in a recent collection on The Well of Loneliness.

You could also email her and ask if she's an "autistic poetic genius" or just someone incapable of understanding technical philosophy because she's written about Judith Butler.

slolernr

"Literary theory is a glass-bead game whose reward for the ludic player is the knowledge that once he masters it, he will be admired by his peers as ludicrous."

Gore Vidal, Screening History (Cambridge, Mass.: 1992), 4.

But I think Vidal was wrong, there are famous literary theorists nowadays, or anyway many of them more famous (among undergraduates) than the literature they ostensibly theorize upon.

Jonathan

Now that I have onomastic evidence that you are Thomas Pynchon, you of all people know that no theorist rivals your fame.

jholbo

You are right that I'm being unfair to Emery, Jonathan. I did look in the library. We just don't have her stuff, despite having a pretty good collection. I can order some. So I did my post anyway while frankly acknowledging I hadn't read her. Fair enough. I wanted to use the passage because I wanted something that moved in the opposite direction as the Butler piece. (Which is not really an excuse, I realize. But if I hadn't used her, I could have used someone else.) Do you deny that her work contains a Butleresque mix - personal and intellectual entangled as in Butler's use of Hegel in the passage in question? I retract the snark about her being an autistic poet. I didn't mean that to sound quite so bad. Just the standard Plato point about how some people are personally inspired but have no idea where the inspiration comes from. It does seem to me so manifestly implausible that the character of her work is as impersonal as she insists. Do you deny it, Jonathan?

I suppose the big reason why I felt confident in writing this sight unseen is that I simply don't believe there is much in literary studies currently that works the way Emery suggests her scholarship works. (So I would be surprised if she were the extremely rare exception.) Namely, there isn't much that is so profoundly over the heads of a lay audience due to its scholarship or technicality. I'm not saying that just anyone can write the stuff. But there is very little done that is so abstruse that it has a right to be incomprehensible to intelligent outsiders - unless it truly is a highly personal sort of poetry in which catches from Hegel are supposed to be invested with great, highly personal pathos, for example.

Well, OK, there are a couple things that are justified in being abstruse. Studies of meter in poetry, for example. And you are right that I should read before I snark. It's bad form. I honestly didn't mean for it to come out so snarky. I just meant to say that surely her work is more personal than she lets on to the article writer. And this is actually quite an important point.

jholbo

I should add that I have no idea whether Butler is capable of understanding technical philosophy. But what she does in her writings is not technical philosophy but poetic deployment of technical philosophical expressions as a way of expressing a personal sensibility.

Jonathan

If you read her book or other work, we can have a discussion about this. I otherwise refuse on principle. I also think that you should contact her yourself. In fact, I'd think it'd be the minimum courtesy you could extend to someone after making these kinds of comments about them.

There's also the matter of taking the Believer article as a reliable and complete exposition.

jholbo

I'll send her an email requesting a copy of the paper, apologizing for snarking without reading and generally encouraging the whole 'right of reply' thing. That is certainly fair enough. (I really didn't mean it to come out so snarky. I just let my mouth run away with me. Bad form.) Let me also clarify - before anyone else makes this complaint in comments - that I am not objecting in principle to folks writing difficult things. It isn't a moral truth that you shouldn't write difficult things, obviously. It is just the case that you shouldn't employ difficulty as part of a sort of hide-the-pea trick, pretending you are playing a Glass Bead Game when really you are not. As the narrator of Hesse's novel explains: "The only way to learn the rules of this Game of games is to take the usual prescribed course which requires many years; and none of the initiates could ever possibly have any interest in making these rules easier to learn." It is beguiling to think of applying this model to literary studies but not really accurate.

Lawrence White

Several points:

(1) Note how John's condensation program (book --> essay, essay --> squib) would also help w/2 large problems in the business: overpublication & premature professionalization.

(2) Anyone who hears a voice "almost cracking" in the phrase "[a]nd so I was confronted by what can only be called the transferability of the attribute" has a tin ear.

(3) Has anyone noticed that the greatest part of theoretical criticism of pop culture is dull? How do you make show business dull? & that it is less insightful than the average water-cooler discussion of these same artifacts?

baa

I think we all agree it's unfair (yet tempting!)to snark someone unread. Likewise, I think we can understand why Jonathan was irked at cavalier dismissal of a colleague's work. John has already made clear that this was not his intent, so perhaps I can note that there's something unsatisfying in Jonathan's remark that:

If you read her book or other work, we can have a discussion about this. I otherwise refuse on principle.

What's the principle involved? Maybe it's simple economy. Who wants to waste time on the skeptic who says "I haven't read Tyler Burge, but I just know Ayn Rand is better." This seems like a lost conversation from the start. A different case is the skeptic who says "analytic philosophy is usually pointless nit-picking, and so I bet Burge is pointless too." Here, it seems eminently possible to provide a justification for Burge that connects his work to topics of general philsophical interest. The only principle that would prevent me from doing so is cussedness (you trash Burge, you get nothing from me, etc.).

Jonathan's comments (here and before) give the sense that there's something almost degrading about justifying literary theorists (or maybe any intellectual field) to ignorant skeptics. I don't think this is so. And I think it's an position that will inevitably hurt people doing good theoretical work.

As an aside, I think Lawrence White's comment #1 is spot-on.

Jonathan

Little is as annoying as the pseudo-Socrates gambit. Especially on the internet. The problematics of literary theory, if we want to call it that, are so much more complex than anything that analytic philosophy concerns itself with, that attempting to discuss the one in terms of the other is simple casuistry. You're left with "but what is truth" and metaphysical gestures clamoring in mutual incomprehension.

Please note that I'm making no value-judgment about the complexity mentioned above. I think this point is clear; if consciousness is a hard problem, then how hard is the analysis of complex, culturally mediated interactions of creating and perceiving consciousnesses as manifest in a poem or novel? Impossible. I think if thought about how hard the problem is, you'd have more patience with the obviously unsatisfactory attempts.

Rich Puchalsky

baa, I think that you misunderstand the nature of Jonathan's objection. So far, he's said little or nothing about the actual content of what John Holbo writes, other than to:

1) Insist that we can not discuss what John Holbo writes until we have read the sources that he cites. The Emery objection is just the same thing over again, abetted by JH's own lack of civility with the "autistic poet" bit. Since every text cites others, this quickly leads to the conclusion that you can not discuss literary theory unless you are an expert.

2) As a backup, insist that literary theory is so complex that no matter how shoddily it is done, you have to give its doers credit. "if consciousness is a hard problem, then how hard is the analysis of complex, culturally mediated interactions of creating and perceiving consciousnesses as manifest in a poem or novel" avoids the fact that people write novels and poems every day. It's like saying that you need to know classical mechanics in order to describe a billiards game. Jonathan likes the grand mysterian gesture that, again, serves as a reason why nothing can really be said.

Jonathan, I would prefer a simple "back off, hoi polloi" rather than a democratic pretence of "literary criticism -- anyone can do it!" followed by a passive aggresive attempt to make sure that people don't actually do it.

Jonathan

Actually Rich, it was John who hadn't read what he was talking about. I generally think that's a good idea, but that could just be my print-paradigm.

People play catch everyday. Does anyone understand how that works? I mean, yeah, I throw the ball, and you catch it. But the computational processes that enable it? Are they understood? At all? Then there's the historioludicity to consider.

Literary studies has conventions and technical concepts* like any field of study, and that you cannot simply ignore them and start anew because you sense that they don't meet your personal standards of rigor, particularly when that standard is imported from a completely different discipline. The interpretation of poetry will not reduce to the philosophy of language.

*"Are they coherent" and "can they be coherent" are two different questions.

Rich Puchalsky

I agree that John hadn't read Emery -- he said as much in his original. I disagree that it was a bad idea for him to deduce something about Emery even though he hadn't read her. (I agree that it was a bad idea for him to call her an autistic poet genius, but that's really another matter.) If you want to insist that we can talk about no one's ideas at second hand, you are effectively insisting that this subject can not be talked about except by experts, because no one else has time to read all the sources.

I wouldn't bring this up except that you have a pattern of doing it. For instance, I characterized Eagleton with a secondary source that described the current direction of his work in a straightforward fashion, so that I could disagree with that direction as an illustration of general principles (i.e. "academic work shouldn't be done towards political goals"). Rather than disagree with the accuracy of my source, you said that I shouldn't write anything about Eagleton before reading his work. If my source was actually wrong, you should have said so; saying that I must form all judgements about people's positions by reading and summarizing their writing for myself excludes me from any sort of conversation in this field.

Now you're doing the same sort of thing to John Holbo. He, I assume, has read a great deal of the basic texts in literary theory, but he hasn't read all of them. So all you need do is catch something on the periphery of what he's read in order to trip him up with a high-minded call for primary sources only. I notice that you don't directly disagree with him about, for example, Eagleton, and it is impossible to avoid the suspicion that this is because he has actually read Eagleton.

As for the ball catching analogy, I thought I was fairly clear. If you want to describe two people playing ball, you don't need to know how they do computationally, that's at a completely different level of analysis. Nor does the literary critic have to solve the problem of conciousness before he or she settles down to describing a particular novel, or even a class of novels. Implying that they do is a form of weird gigantism -- John Holbo's puffer fish writ large. It is easy to be a mysterian if you say that no problems can be solved unless everything is understood at the most basic level.

Jonathan

It is a different level of analysis, but how do you which levels of analysis are sufficient for your task? How do you even know what your task is? What does it mean to "describe" a novel? Summarize it? Explain how it relates to a tradition? Historical circumstance? Analyze its narrative structure? Why do people throw and catch small objects at each other? Where did this come from? Can you explain this without resorting to silly stories about the savannah? Is the fact that it can be done directly related to what's unique about the species?

The reason I won't attempt to discuss Eagleton with someone who hasn't read him at all is that the bar to informed participation is set very low. You don't need any training to understand his arguments, I don't think, so you don't need "expert" guidance. Furthermore, I think it would be self-evident why your third-hand quotation was an oversimplification if you would make the minimal effort to verify it. I foresaw tedious internet-Socraticism as well.

I do disagree with John about his characterization of Eagleton, as it turns out, primarily because I' more forgiving of imprecision (forest-tree issues, etc.)

Chomsky has often made statements about how no one can explain to him so-called "theoretical" concepts in the social sciences and the humanities. Coming from him, that has a lot of rhetorical force. And he does read things.

Rich Puchalsky

Jonathan, I know that I'm reaching the point of diminishing returns here, but I'll try again. It is true that a physicist, a historian, a sociologist, and an evolutionary biologist might all have something interesting to say about ball-playing. That doesn't mean that you get to be all of them put together. It is true that a text might be studied by a historian, a sociologist, a linguist, and so on -- but that doesn't mean that literary theory encompasses all of these other fields. If you can't define what you do, that doesn't mean that your subject expands to be, mystically, all conciousness, it just means that you can't define what you do.

It's as if you were declaring that your field was ball-ology. Except that in this case, you're boasting that you've got really big balls -- they are all texts that ever have or could be written, no, all language, no, all culture. I'm sorry, but no one really believes that your balls are that big.

As for Eagleton, I as slowly reading his Literary Theory: An Introduction. (Slowly because my copy is at Barnes & Noble.) I have to say that my impressions of the beginning bear out what John Holbo has said about it. In particular, the jaunty assertion that he's going to show how all sorts of famous texts were written as reflections of their socioeconomic conditions (sorry, can't give you the exact quote -- my copy isn't in front of me) strikes me as the worst sort of Vulgar Marxism. Maybe once I'm done, you'll be able to tell me what's wrong with my third-hand quotation if it turns out not to be self-evident. But I suspect that by then, in order to really understand, I'll have to read something else by Eagleton.

One last misunderstanding. When I said that you didn't disagree with John, I didn't mean that you didn't disagree with him about Eagleton in general -- I knew that you must, since you recommended him, and John wrote that he really dislikes his work. What I meant was that other than saying that John should Email him his dialogue (impossible, by the way, as Eagleton doesn't seem to like Email), you've never bothered to state in so many words why John is wrong about him.

Actually, you've now given us six words: that you're more "forgiving of imprecision (forest-tree issues", which, while a bit vague, is better than before. Though it doesn't address John's core issues with Eagleton, really. If you'd like to write more, go ahead -- nothing is stopping you from debating with John. He's read Eagleton. But instead you seem to like to characterize the debate as if *my* level of knowledge represents the most informed non-literary-theorist part of it. Why is that?

Jonathan

Literature is a difficult thing to understand. We know very little about how it is written and read. Attempts to generalize about it involve, inevitably, assumptions of prior knowledge and isolable imprecision. Deriding the need for the former is ignorant, and focusing exclusively on the latter is myopic.

A system of literary criticism that starts ab initio is potentially curious but certainly worthless. I'm sure that's not what you were wanting to do, though I detect, in your apparent reluctance to read anything in the field, the signs of it. The book you're reading by Eagleton is a survey of trends in literary theory and incidental criticism of them from a broadly Marxist perspective. I think it will give you an idea of the footnotes to Plato then in fashion.The After Theory book deals with more recent developments, which I suspect you'll also find personally offensive.

Why my, to me, truistic claim that literary theory is impossible (and thus, of course, a failure) inspires such a reaction is puzzling. I'm certainly not defending the particular contours of any given failure. I happen to be very interested currently in what cognitive science can tell us about narrative, and what, if anything, this research reveals about the way that experience is condensed and transformed in literary production. I'm not going to make any grandiose claims about it; and you'll find, provided you look at what literature professors actually publish, a perhaps surprising lack of any type of grandiose claim. What overreach and syncresis you find is just the price of admission to this level of abstraction (nb: not a value-judgment). Granted, there are different degrees. And appreciation requires less, though it's still there.

I have exchanged lengthy emails with Professor Holbo over the years on the subject of his dialogue. I fear that my comments weren't terribly helpful, but I did try; and I don't have anything further to add at the moment. I'm afraid I have no idea if Eagleton would respond to it or not, but I'd certainly send it to him if I had written it.

des von bladet

The trouble with Hesse, of course, is that he lacks any real insight into the spiritual and philosophical dimensions of life.

jholbo

Just a few words in response to Rich and baa. Thank you for defending the basic propriety of my talking about Emery's work without reading it, just on the basis of the "Believer" article. (We'll let the poet line slide, yes.) It's true that people just have to reason like this. If X is influenced by Butler and I think Butler is foolish, it is not unreasonable to infer that X is probably foolish. (I can't read everyone. I have make some cuts on the basis of what seem reasonable surmises.) The danger comes rather in the double-counting. You cite your believe that X is foolish as supportive evidence that Butler is foolish. Obviously this is circular and totally illegitimate. In my post, I don't do this, but I am on the verge of doing it. Better to pull back from the edge.

Rich Puchalsky

Jonathan, you've written three statements that, in conjunction, are quite impressive:

1. "Literature is a difficult thing to understand. We know very little about how it is written and read. Attempts to generalize about it involve, inevitably, assumptions of prior knowledge and isolable imprecision."

and

2. "A system of literary criticism that starts ab initio is potentially curious but certainly worthless. I'm sure that's not what you were wanting to do, though I detect, in your apparent reluctance to read anything in the field, the signs of it."

and

3. "Why my, to me, truistic claim that literary theory is impossible (and thus, of course, a failure) inspires such a reaction is puzzling."

Wow. Where to start?

OK, I'll start by disposing of yet another repetition of the big balls claim. You also write: "I happen to be very interested currently in what cognitive science can tell us about narrative [...]". What makes you think that whatever cognitive science can tell us about narrative is part of literary studies? If cognitive science does tell us something about narrative, then that information is part of cognitive science. Literary theory people certainly are not qualified to do research in cognitive science. You seem to think that any information about literature from whatever source becomes part of your field -- well, it doesn't. You may borrow scattered concepts and bits of (generally misused, or so I hear) technique from sociology, linguistics, and so on, but that doesn't make you a sociologist or a linguist, and it doesn't mean that your field encompasses theirs.

So, what can your field do? Well, your statement 1 above says that you find literature difficult to understand, and that you know very little about how it is written and read, although there is apparently ("very little", presumably) accumulated prior knowledge. But statement 3 says that you have defined literary theory in such a way that it is *truistically* impossible and a failure.

Jonathan, no other academic field that I know of defines its work as being truistically impossible and a failure. If this is really widely believed, then why does anyone keep working in this field? Please don't use any reference to high culture and/or canonically great books in your answer; we know that literary theorists have given up on that justification. (Or, rather, that there is a conservative group that wants to go back to such a justification, but that is rejected among the current practitioners of literary theory. I suspect, by the way, that most of the minor store of "accumulated knowledge" that you wrote about was accumulated by this group). And why shouldn't people kick you out of the academy wholesale? After all, if you are truistically failures, why should people pay you to fail?

Now let's go back to statement 2. If you really believed your own statement that literary theory is impossible, then statement 2 becomes incoherent, to say the least. What could be wrong with starting ab initio? After all, you say that the current approach is a truistic failure despite whatever knowledge has been accumulated, so what could be lost in tossing it out and starting again, however ignorantly? If it is a truistic failure because of the way the problem has been defined, then perhaps redefining it will help, if not, then an ab initio approach can not fail more than what is already a truistic failure.

I should say that I don't believe that you really mean what you are saying here. I think that you're going to reply with something that comes down to a complicated equivocation between "literature", "literary criticism", "literary theory", and "literary studies", in which you can be as mysterian as you like about the one without affecting the other.

But on the off chance that you do take your position seriously, I should point out that I have indeed tried to come up with a basic *intellectual justification* for literary criticism as an academic field ab initio -- not a system of literary criticism itself, which would be rather a large job. An intellectual justification for literary theory is what, by your own assertion, you are completely unable to supply. And your lack of one is, I believe, the underlying reason for the ongoing MLA-ridicule which is the subject of many of these threads. A naive justification is really what you need, if you can't supply a sophisticated one. And of course, the time to attempt such a thing is before one has read anything, not after.

Lawrence White

Let me use Mr. von Bledet's contribution as an excuse to say that John's whole presentation would be stronger if it lost the Hesse bits. I skipped all those parts.

Jonathan

It's difficult for me to avoid the impression that most of your arguments, Rich, come from personal incredulity, spiced with a hint of indignation. So unless the discussion takes a more productive turn, I'm not going to be contributing much more.

There's an impressive amount of work applying concepts from cognitive science to literary and cultural study. Mark Turner, David Herman, Norm Holland, David Bordwell, Alan Richardson, Ellen Spolsky, and Marie-Laure Ryan are just a few names. I won't ask you to read any of it, because I know how that'll go, but it is there. There are related but different studies by people who focus primarily on evolutionary psychology: Nancy Easterlin, Joseph Carroll, and Lisa Zunshine are some who come to mind. I believe that Pinker has commented positively upon their efforts; and Turner has co-written books with George Lakoff, but I admire the rhetorical force of your argument from abject ignorance re the potential rigor and validity of such work.

What I define to be a failure is a literary theory that would have any explanatory capacity. (I should add that this would apply to just about any theory in the social sciences, much less the humanities.) Some of it aspires to this condition, and it should not be entirely dismissed because it fails. Failures can be suggestive and useful. That's why it's important to know the history of the field.

Theoretical inquiry that's primarily descriptive is, of course, not a predetermined failure; and it constitutes the bulk of what's published in the field. It's "theoretical" because there are always methodological frameworks within which any claims about literature are made. This is the, again, truistic point that Eagleton makes. Holbo's argument about this in the dialogue strikes me as quodlibetal. When Nabokov insists on precise entomological description in one essay, or sketches what a rail car actually looked like in another, he's making a complicated claim about narrative, mind, and mimesis. Self-reflection upon it is not required, but it's simple ostrichism to argue that people shouldn't inquire about these things because you're agin it and a few Richard Pryors of your tax dollars fund some of them.

I believe that story and narrative are integral to the human mind and that we could no more eliminate interest in how they work than we could sand or roadside diners. MLA ridicule is a direct consequence of how pervasive the desire to consume narrative is. People feel intuitively that anything someone says about novels, plays, or video games should be framed in terms that they can understand, since they understand these things so easily and with so much pleasure. In my experience, people who write academic criticism (and especially "theory") tend to be troubled re-readers, with furrowed brows and ink-scarred books. They reflect on what's happening as they read, and it becomes less familiar. Whether it's less pleasurable is debatable.

Jonathan

I also used to entertain a modish contempt for Hesse, but after re-reading The Glass Bead Game, I think the book is of considerable interest. Am even teaching it this semester, though that's directly because of the game metaphor.

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