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January 26, 2005

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bob mcmanus

Well, yeah the grandfathers are Verne, Burroughs, and Wells. Wells is your CF guy, Verne or Burroughs didn't often "change the world." There are some little intellectual puzzle pieces of the kind Arthur Clarke was good at, but for the most part good SF transfigures ....everything...usually to provide a new perpective for the reader on his reality.

SF not being about character or story is about place. There is very little small scale or localized SF, like Murdoch or Faulkner or Didion. I have heard it said that good Sf is not spiritual, the word I heard was eschatological. That is the level of ambition.

Vance Maverick

"Holograph" means handwritten here, not hologram, I think.

Vance Maverick

And it occurs to me that you knew that.

Signed, Humorless in Italy

jholbo

I wasn't actually sure what it meant, Vance. (I guessed that it was not hologram, but I was a bit puzzled.) Thank you for telling me.

William S

Yikes.

Rich Puchalsky

I think that Gibson book is really more spiritual fiction than CF, unless all CF is spiritual. Gibson's books are organized around archetypal characters. The coolhunting character in Pattern Recognition is just another version of Gibson's Finder of Art: someone with a mystical ability to track down artistic works -- representing the source of all value in a world where everything else is a
commodity. The Pattern Recognition character finds movies; previous books have had Finders who found watches, sculpture, etc. I'd say that this is a cognate for an ordinary mystic's supposed ability to find God. Also, I think that Stapledon's Last and First Men is better described as a mystic work rather than a cultural one.

Science fiction that's really spiritual fiction seems fairly widespread. It should probably include every major Philip K. Dick book to start with.

As a sort of footnote, there is a list of mentions of some of the smaller real-world religions in SF books at:

http://www.adherents.com/lit/index.html

jholbo

Just: yikes?

Is that good, or are you just embarrassed for me that I didn't know holograph? (Hey, I'm already moving beyond that and putting the shattered bits of my linguistic life together.)

Patrick Nielsen Hayden

Sure. One of the most venerable stunts in the SF bag of tricks is the deployment of stuff that feels "rational" in the service of a big Touching The Face Of God payoff. It's venerable because we never get tired of it.

jholbo

If I may suggest a direction for this thread - but feel free to follow it where you will: what do people think of "Glass Bead Game" in relation to the SF tradition?

jholbo

Oh, and greetings Patrick. Always glad to hear from you. You are right, of course, that my point is sort of elementary. I really wanted to invite discussion of Hesse, who isn't exactly in the SF canon - although I know I'm not the first to identify his novel as SF.

Jonathan

I'm teaching the Hesse later this semester. I hope to have more to say about this post when I don't have to go teach, but I'll certainly also have my students take a look. There will be a class blog as soon as I set it up this week.

jholbo

You're teaching Hesse as SF? Please inform me of any interesting secondary literature you find.

Jonathan

I'm teaching Glass Bead Game--not sure about the "SF" there.

Rich Puchalsky

John Holbo: "what do people think of 'Glass Bead Game' in relation to the SF tradition?"

I think that it belongs with the utopias, dystopias, social satires, and books of ideas, and should no more be considered to be SF than Gulliver's Travels should be considered to be "travel fiction". Or perhaps I'd say that if the Borges short stories having to do with language are SF, then the Glass Bead Game is SF.

The Glass Bead Game itself could well feature in a Borges short story. It's basically a totalitarian concept: that all culture and all science can be encompassed within a universal symbolic language, the rules of which can no longer be changed or added to. Playing the Game is a combinatorial process of linking existing ideas -- one might imagine a musical analogy as being a sort of hip-hop composed entirely of cleverly arranged samples. Hesse makes it clear in the introduction to the book that his imagined society no longer really produces much art or much science, and has no real use for the individual outside of their hierarchical role. So wondering why they have little technology is rather beside the point. I mean, one could go to a standard SF amateur sociology extrapolation and say "A society with little active science might well lose its advanced technology", but that isn't what Hesse seems to be interested in.

Disclaimer: last read the book long, long ago.

Evan Williams

For me, CF and spiritual fiction fall into the general category of magical realism. Phillip K. Dick is interesting, here. He travels all the way from SF to CF to Spi-Fi, often in the same paragraph. He certainly has written traditional SF stories, but even those are not about space ships, except as vehicles to get to something more profound.

And this, for me, is the essence of magical realism. I guess I feel that, say, the Galactic Pot Healer has more in common with 100 years of solitude than Rendezvous with Rama.

The line between magical realism, SF, and Fantasy depends largely on the intent of the author. Elves, Ray Guns, or wierd, magic plagues are capable of being the focus of a story, or a device to get to something deeper or truer (or, for that matter, falser). What section Barnes and Noble shelves the book in is largely irrelevant (for my purposes).

bob mcmanus

Maybe I am not getting it.

"Stranger" and "Shockwave" are just variations on "Odd John" or "Slan"

Clarke's "City & the Stars", "Logan's Run". Robert Silverberg's "Time of Changes" about a society without the 1st person pronoun. These are utopias/dystopias that are ultimately sterile and spiritually destructive, and about individual breakthroughs coming about through renunciation of the technology and "return to nature"

I always considered the Glass Bead Game to be a technology (specifically Whitehead/Russell with barbaric Goedel the protagonist...been 30 years for me too). A universal symbology encompassing all science,art, other human intellectual endeavors. Strikes me as a technology philosophers could love. Are not religion, language, philosophy "technologies" as much as any other measuring instruments?

Hesse may have has parallels to the sterility of the scholastics, probably to the Hindu thinkers of Buddha's time, and certainly to the direction high literature(Joyce & especially Mann) and philosophy were taking at the time he wrote the book.

Keith

Having not read the Glass Bead Game (though I do have it sitting on my shelf, in the line up of things to get to one day) I can't really comment on it in any meaningful way.

However, I've always had a vague inkling that Sidhartha could be viewed as an SF inner-quest, if you view the spirituality in a purely metaphorical sense. Buddha becomes a Phildikean displacement of Sidhartha, analogous to how VALIS is a displacement of Horselover Fat (which in turn is a displacement of Philip Dick). This has the odd result of putting both Hesse and Dick as two points on the same continuum; both men looking for God, but going about it in the most different ways possible.

ben wolfson

Not having read any of the books mentioned in this post, but having a sort of general geek-derived sense of the meaning of "grok", I ask: it's not too far removed from intuitive knowledge, right? Ie, "all is leaf!" is an instance of grokking?

back40

Iain Banks' Player of Games is a useful SF companion for GBG. Cue Hipbone.

bob mcmanus

Okat. Moved the Gibson & Hesse over to my hardrive. This reminds of the thread a while back, i searched in vain, about the difficulty in imagining moral absurdities(IIRC). So is the question about imagining impossible(or very very alien) cultures or cultural artifacts?

Are we talking about stuff like Silverberg's egoless society and Kate Wilhelm's community of clones? Or musical instruments made of klein bottles played by the artist's emotions?

SF has been very conservative, Burkean, in viewing the unchangableness of human nature in the face of changing technology. Part of the point. But maybe it is just difficult to imagine different "human natures". And always considered a great challenge to come up with a plausible alien intelligence.

William S

So sorry. Actually meant 'yikes' more for myself and the potential of the post. I wanted to comment but have not yet sorted out all thoughts...

Vance Maverick

Ben, there's a reasonable entry on "grok" in Wikipedia.

Gary Farber

"They are the cultural equivalent of zap guns."

This may not be at all as clear as you intend. Off-hand, a "zap gun" is more or less one of two things: either it's a fancier taser -- hardly an impossibility -- or it's a fancier laser -- equally real. But perhaps it's just me who isn't at all clear what you have in mind in using "zap gun" as a synecdoche for impossible technology.

(Ever hear the story of how Pyramid published Phil Dick's The Zap Gun and Jack Vance's Space Opera? Don Benson, the primary sf editor there in the late Sixties thought it would be funny to commission books with those titles....

As Scott Meredith, one-time active sf fan, then Dick's agent, wrote him: "Dear Phil:
I'm happy to report that we have a novel assignment for you from Pyramid Books. We had a meeting with Don Benson, the editor over there, and he has an idea for a science fiction novel entitled THE ZAP GUN.
Of course, you'll recognize the zap gun as the old Buck Rogers standby. Don wants to do a book that would be somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but about the serious possibility of a real "blaster". The blaster seems much more a possibility today because of the experiments with the laser beam.
Don has agreed to contract on the basis of a detailed outline from you and will pay an advance of $1500: $500 on signature of contract, $500 on completion, and $500 on publication.
I hope this idea interests you, and I'll look forward to an outline from you shortly.
In the meantime, all the best. Scott."

Don later wrote to Dick Geis's Psychotic (later titled the anodyne Science Fiction Review, but still one of the most prominent fanzines of the day): "Thanks for the very interesting review of THE ZAP GUN in PSYCHOTIC. I'm glad you liked it, to the extent that you did anyway. The origin of the book was interesting: my publishers have a strong preference for "real science fiction" titles for S-F books -- hence the retitling of Raymond Jones' RENAISSANCE, which we put out as MAN OF TWO WORLDS; many other books, especially originals, had this happen. Naturally, I got bugged, losing arguments on this point all the time, and decided to start with "real science fiction titles" nobody could fault. {I m}ade up two, SPACE OPERA and THE ZAP GUN, and I found writers for them, Jack Vance and Phil Dick. Curiously enough, I had at the last minute, trouble with these titles, one representative of Management saying: "SPACE OPERA -- that doesn't sound like science fiction..."

However, having more or less grown up in the field, I rather tired of discussions about the borders and definitions of genres sometime in my late teens. Campbell started calling for "social science fiction" shortly after he took over Astounding circa 1938, and believed he found it with Heinlein, stories such as Asimov's Nightfall, and others. Call it soft sf, call it cultural fiction, call it a bananna. Literary taxonomy makes me yawn, but it seems entirely ineradicable, so enjoy.

Chip Delany has said many wonderful things on the pointlessness of genre debates, though. Wish I could recall the one I have in the back of my head at the moment --- ah, yes, I quoted it on rec.arts.sf.fandom on Usenet in 2000, back when I still wrote on Usenet. And now I've posted it here, as it's rather long to post as a comment, and besides, this way I can find it again more easily, and besides, I've posted a lot in the last couple of days, and no one's reading it, according to Site Meter. So go read Chip on "descriptions," rather than "definitions" of genre....

jholbo

That's fascinating, Gary. I love this stuff. I meant 'zap gun' to evoke, specifically, the equivocal status of the tech products in Dick's novel. Are they real or aren't they? A zap gun is an obviously fake gun - just a pleasant toy. Then again, it might shoot. (Then again it's been a while since I read Dick's novel. Maybe I'm just getting confused.)

Gary Farber

I'm afraid the last time I read Dick's book was about thirty years ago, so my memory of the actual details is quite vague at this point.

But -- and forgive me for being slow here; I simply want to be sure I'm understanding you correctly -- are you saying that your usage of "zap gun" is more or less derived from the Dick novel?

Because "zap gun" as a term was around fandom and the sf field since, specifically, the 1948 Worldcon in Toronto, Torcon I, and the infamous ""ZAP! ZAP! ATOMIC RAY IS PASSE WITH FIENDS" newspaper headline, and Martin Alger's subsequent remark the next day. As Dick Eney's Fancyclopedia II put it circa 1959, well, see the entry at the bottom of the page for here, and Richard Graeme's more thorough here under the newspaper headline.

The "ZAP, ZAP, RAY GUN FIENDS PASSE" headline was still legendary when I first became active in fandom circa 1971, and was still being used as an interlineation in fanzines later in the Seventies. (Of course, in the modern era, you can pull the reference to "Buck Rogers" out and replace it with "Star Trek" or some far worse sci-fi media dreck, like the original "Battlestar Galactica," or even yet worse.)

It's not that I expect modern sf readers to be steeped, or have ever heard of, what is now obscure fanhistory, of course. I'm just noting that the title of Dick's book was precisely because of the existing lineage of the term in the field as meaning something along the lines of "dopey prop in bad movie serial, and not something found in real science fiction." (And to a lesser, and more obscure, degree, the joking term for the water-guns that were briefly in vogue at sf conventions in the early Fifties.)

Since that's the kind of background sense of usage I come to the table with, that's why I'm stumbling a bit trying to make sure I'm understanding what your usage is. (Please be clear I'm not in any way saying my understanding is in any way more "valid" than yours is, or anything like that.)

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