Cherubim and Seraphim, Falling Down Before Thee

Sorry about the light posting around here; I've been sick with mastitis again (Mom, feel free to chime in in comments and tell me to stop breastfeeding now.) Errg. It's not responding well to antibiotics and it's very painful. As I told John, if I were St. Teresa of Avila I would go for this kind of thing (I mean, the stabbing pains in the breast), but it's just not me.
Speaking of saints, it seems the Catholic Church is going to beatify John Paul II any day now. I sort of wonder about the mechanics involved. Let's say, ex hypothesi, he's in heaven now. Did God recognize his sainthood right away, and get him on duty casting down his golden crown around the glassy sea on day one? Or is God waiting to see what the Church does? Like, you just hang on to this silver crown for a while, and we'll see if you move up.
(Random postscript: I see in googling this hymn that evangelicals in America have changed the final line of the hymn Holy, Holy, Holy from "God in Three Persons, Blessed Trinity" to "God everlasting, through eternity." (And the hymn was also renamed: "The hymn is, 'Holy, Holy, Holy-Blessed Trinity.' It was revised to: 'Holy, Holy, Holy-Blessed Majesty.'") Seems weak, but I guess some evangelicals don't believe in the Trinity? Can that be right? Wait, what do they think about the Nicene Creed?)
UPDATE: well, it seems as if Mormons and Seventh-Day-Adventists don't believe in the Nicene Creed, but pretty much everyone else does. See here. I guess those apparently  trinity-denying types I came across were fringe nutballs rather than plain old evangelical Christians. Now, get out there and get into an argument about the filioque in comments, kids!

Comments

[Standpipe Bridgeplate]

God imprisons each prospective saint in a cabbage. It is up to the Church to strike the cabbage open with its canon-mallet, thereby granting sainthood.

[Carlos]

It has been conjectured that further symmetry breaking will lead to a God in Six Persons, which have tentatively been named Bereshith, Tetragrammaton, Incarnatus, Agape, Pentecost, and Paracletus.

Alas, They do not assemble to form a larger, robot Godhead; on the other hand, one might consider Them/Him a justice league.

[Standpipe Bridgeplate]

Heavenly Father,

We thank You for granting Carlos the power to make us laugh with abandon. But, that he may be reunited with You in everlasting life, please grant him also the will to repent of his "justice league" heresy, and come to know the true nature of Your glory.

In the name of the Penny, the Brain, and the Inspector Gadget, Amen.

[Julian Elson]

I think that a Catholic would say that God directly inspired Benedict XVI to beatify JPII.

[des von bladet]

Beatification isn't sainthood, though but. _Canonisation_ is sainthood, and you need two (2) bona fide miracles for that, compared to only one (1) for beatification.

So JPII has been fast-tracked into the Legion of Superheroes (as Anticommunisme Lad, maybe) but he's still a ways off of a shot at the JLA.

(I've been following the Pope stuff lately, and it's come to my attention that the Catholique mythos knocks Lovecraft, say, into a cocked hat, whatever that is.)

[Larry Brennan]

A good friend of mine just graduated from a Catholic law school this past weekend. Throughout the ceremonies (a 2 hour mass and a separate commencement the next day) JPII was consistently referred to as John Paul The Great.

The radical Catholics are *really* boosting for an instant canonization. Perhaps he can make some more images of the Virgin Mary appear on freeway underpasses as evidence of his saintworthiness.

[ash]

I guess those apparently trinity-denying types I came across were fringe nutballs rather than plain old evangelical Christians.

Well, not to my mind. Puritans? Calvinists? Anabaptists? Southern Baptists? (Keeping in mind that the none of those sects are neccessarily able to maintain doctrinal unity the way Catholics can.)

Personally I think the anti-Trinity people have the better argument (but then I think the Seventh Day people have a better argument for the Sabbath) even though I am neither, and am not particularly Christian and if I was I'd inherit Episcopal leanings, and my personal preferences run to Eastern Orthodoxy (when treating the assorted sects as pimping important lifestyle choices).

ash
['Inerrancy is a different deal.']

[woof]

Think of the crowds in St. Peter's square with the giant soccer-stadium banners and the soccer chants "Giovaaaanni Paolo (bum bum) Saaaanto subito (bum bum)." But what if the popular furor dies down? I mean, how long can it hold up? After all, little San Simonino was canonized thanks to his mass cult but then yanked in the 1950's.

I am always struck by the use of ancient Hebrew prayers in modern Nazarene liturgy. "Holy holy holy" is one of them, it dates back about 3000 years at least.

[belle waring]

baptists don't believe in the trinity? man, christians who don't believe in the Nicene Creed are just pretend christians in my book. anyway, I admit the whole holy spirit thing is weak, but then, do they believe in "the duality"? they're pretty much stuck with god and jesus, it seems like.

[Matt]

Des Said, "Beatification isn't sainthood, though but. _Canonisation_ is sainthood, and you need two (2) bona fide miracles for that, compared to only one (1) for beatification."

But, I'm pretty sure that at least one of the miracles can be a card trick, so it's not too high of a bar. (At least that's what TV taught me.)

[Jeff]

I'd say the church is waiting to see what God does. To elaborate on a previous comment, there are several steps to being declared a saint (canonization is the formal ceremony). First you have to be dead. For most people, the church waits ten years to see if some sort of cult of veneration arises. If the person died peacefully (a confessor), then his or her life is examined for "heroic virtue." Once that's established, a miracle must be confirmed to beatify the person. This miracle would show that prayers to the person succeeded in an intercession from God. When a second miracle is confirmed, the person may be canonized. Martyrs skip the first miracle and go directly to beatification. The ten year wait can be waived if the veneration after their death is impressive enough, like for Mother Theresa and perhaps John Paul. For a long and dense (and partly out of date) description see the Catholic Encyclopedia's page on beatifcation and canonization.

[Cala]

Technically, all the Church does is acknowledge someone as a saint; the saint-making is done by God, the person, grace, what have you, and the Church just recognizes it in cases where miracles show up.

[dsquared]

I can't help but think that the democratisation of sainthood is going to end up with the Catholic Church following the path of the credit card and frequent flyer industry and introducing a special "platinum" cateogry of saint to set apart the Peters, Judes, Johns etc from the gaggle of Southeast Asians canonised by JP2 to shore up the regional franchise.

[Ereshkigal]

Unitarian-Universalists have their own parody of the hymn,titled Coffee,Coffee,Coffee. IT was written by Christopher Raible,a UU minister. First verse:

Coffee, Coffee, Coffee,
Praise the strength of coffee.
Early in the morn we rise with thoughts of only thee.
Served fresh or reheated,
Dark by thee defeated,
Brewed black by perk or drip or instantly.

[Your Mom]

So here I am: stop breastfeeding. that child has teeth, which is nature's sign that it is time to eat crakers, rice and carrots.

I love you and I'm so sorry you are sick again.

Your Loving Mom

[Tony Zbaraschuk]

Actually, Seventh-day Adventists generally are believers in the Nicene Creed. (Not that we adopt it officially, but I think our official statement of beliefs pretty much covers the same ground, particularly with respect to the Trinity)

[Nebo]

God remains the only One Almighty God no matter the religious hypothesis of Trinitarians. Our God never changes even though human beings have untrue imaginations about Him. God the only wise and merciful God alone deserves to be worshiped as God only. You have the right to know this no matter what church writings and ministers say. Discover God for yourself. It very IMPORTANT. That is one of the greatest purpose why we are here on earth. Thanks.

[belle waring]

thanks Nebo. I'll keep that in mind. that's nix on the trinity, then?