« Blame Canada | Main | Wolfowitz at Abu Ghraib »

May 28, 2004

Comments

nnyhav

I haf nofing!

jholbo

You intrigue me, sir.

bob mcmanus

2 comments. Well, way out of my league, amazing.
Someone who has read more than one Empson book is likely a professional. It shows. I read the whole thing, twice. "Being There" of course came to mind, obviously, but heck what are Faulkner and Welty really doing?

Didn't comment last night, felt it wasn't aimed at me. But hey. "Adaptation" has become a new and larger experience for me, Mr Holbo, and I am most obliged to at least thank you.

Ray

1) Any reason (other than the Empson connection) to use "mock-pastoral" rather than "irony," which seems the more general term for what you're covering? (Oh, wait -- you seem particularly interested [as am I] in the ways in which irony, far from covering one's ass, bites it. Chosing to stress what comes after the "mock-" may help with that. OK, carry on.)

2) [Actually, this turned out way too long. I'll post it in my own back yard.]

jholbo

I eagerly await your response, sir. The short answer about mock vs. irony is that - yes, mostly it's just the Empson thing, plus the ass-biting thing. But it's also the sentimental/pious/child-cult/mystical thing, potentially. Tolstoy is mock in my sense, but it would be a little awkward to call his pious tale 'ironic'. There is the irony of the surprise ending, but the tale is not 'ironic' in spirit, in any of the usual, smirking senses. I think I would do well to explain this a little better, however. And a simple, brief statement about why I'm not calling it 'irony' would probably do the trick.

Jake Wilson

As an Australian I can't help wondering if there's something in the banality-as-depth idea that resonates with a particularly American model of democracy -- every man his own prophet, or something like that. Anyway, great essay. From the pop-culture-as-nature angle, two movies that fit your paradigm beautifully are "Ed Wood" and, still more complexly, "A.I." (childcult with a vengeance). By the way, Dan Sallitt's "All the Ships at Sea" (http://www.panix.com/~sallitt/atsas) is almost exactly the Montaigne adaptation you envisage: sisters instead of brothers, extended theological discussions, rural setting.

David Fiore

Really interesting stuff John, although I feel obliged to point out that most silver age marvel characters (admittedly, these are not the heroes that Moore works with) are quite different from most of the other heroic figures you have linked them with (Spider-Man, Dr. Strange, Captain America--in the hands of a writer like Gruenwald, at least, the X-Men; these people are all very much aware of the futility of their quests, and each new issue brings, not triumph, but merely another day of struggle against the inevitable). Moore's work is rooted in Golden Age soil, while Morrison & Gruenwald raised epiphytes upon a genre that was already fairly complex--the puritan conversion narrative (which, as Emerson demonstrates, is quite Montaignean)

Can't wait for the rest of this!

Dave

David S. Goodwin

I'd be remiss in my fan-boy duties if I didn't toss Buffy the Vampire Slayer into the mix. The show seems to me a perfect example example of mock-heroic. The premise was supposed to be silly: teenage girl encounters and kills - rather than is killed by - vampires. But it turned out to be an incredibly enduring and well handled series. The press never quite figured out why, aside from the the "allegory of a coming-of-age story" angle, but I think you've got it here.

And, of course, Joss Whedon (the creator) has the same knack as Pratchett of making his characters wholly sympathetic. He may mock them, but doesn't sneer.

sharon

From §6 Montaigne As Mock-Pastoral: The older brother doesn’t know what to do in such a case – goes from being annoyed to confused to frightened; doesn’t know whether to believe this is real or delusion; starts to reread his own sophisticated stuff frantically, perhaps consults in despair the author of the offending ‘spirituality for dummies’ book and finds … an intensely religious personality. Or a fraud. You decide.

-------------

My choice would be to have the older brother find the author of "Spirituality For Dummies" to be a kind and wonderful person . . . since you say we get to decide ;)

The comments to this entry are closed.

Email John & Belle

  • he.jpgjholbo-at-mac-dot-com
  • she.jpgbbwaring-at-yahoo-dot-com

Google J&B


J&B Archives

Buy Reason and Persuasion!

S&O @ J&B

  • www.flickr.com
    This is a Flickr badge showing items in a set called Squid and Owl. Make your own badge here.

Reason and Persuasion Illustrations

  • www.flickr.com

J&B Have A Tipjar


  • Search Now:

  • Buy a couple books, we get a couple bucks.
Blog powered by Typepad

J&B Have A Comment Policy

  • This edited version of our comment policy is effective as of May 10, 2006.

    By publishing a comment to this blog you are granting its proprietors, John Holbo and Belle Waring, the right to republish that comment in any way shape or form they see fit.

    Severable from the above, and to the extent permitted by law, you hereby agree to the following as well: by leaving a comment you grant to the proprietors the right to release ALL your comments to this blog under this Creative Commons license (attribution 2.5). This license allows copying, derivative works, and commercial use.

    Severable from the above, and to the extent permitted by law, you are also granting to this blog's proprietors the right to so release any and all comments you may make to any OTHER blog at any time. This is retroactive. By publishing ANY comment to this blog, you thereby grant to the proprietors of this blog the right to release any of your comments (made to any blog, at any time, past, present or future) under the terms of the above CC license.

    Posting a comment constitutes consent to the following choice of law and choice of venue governing any disputes arising under this licensing arrangement: such disputes shall be adjudicated according to Canadian law and in the courts of Singapore.

    If you do NOT agree to these terms, for pete's sake do NOT leave a comment. It's that simple.

  • Confused by our comment policy?

    We're testing a strong CC license as a form of troll repellant. Does that sound strange? Read this thread. (I know, it's long. Keep scrolling. Further. Further. Ah, there.) So basically, we figure trolls will recognize that selling coffee cups and t-shirts is the best revenge, and will keep away. If we're wrong about that, at least someone can still sell the cups and shirts. (Sigh.)