And He Liked It

How much would straight men's homophobia have to die down to get to the point where hot guys would make out at parties and bars in an effort to attract chicks? Not before I am a dirty old woman, right?  I mean, I have known guys to do this, but more because they were wasted and feeling experimental. I brought this up to John and he questioned whether women would think it was hot. My response was a deadpan, "I figure there's got to be room in there for me somewhere." More seriously, yes, women think gay guys getting together is hot.

Comments

[Kip Manley]

The cross-cultural popularity of yaoi proves if nothing else the appetite is there. —I’m not sure, though, that we all must necessarily welcome the advent of smugly mugging gym-bunny GUGs (oh, wait, fraternities!)—but perhaps it's a stage we must pass through on our way to somewhere better.

[Vector Prime]

I feel the need to note that I, a straight man, have on more than one occasion made out with straight or bisexual men at parties with this exact intent. I also feel the need to note that this tactic is frighteningly effective.

[southpaw]

I'd like to think I run with a pretty tolerant crowd. But if it's homophobia that keeps straight men from making out in bars, then we've still got it in spades. Apologies.

[Doctor Memory]

I wouldn't say that it's common yet, but I've encountered it more than a few times. Where by encountered I mean "done it enthusiastically." As a somewhat less-than-straight boy, this makes for about 10% frustration (it ain't never going to go any further) but 90% win: as Vector notes, it's a near foolproof pick-up tactic for girls, and plus I get to make out with a cute boy.

Then again, I live in San Francisco, so calibrate expectations accordingly elsewhere.

[Saheli]

I have a few straight guy friends who frequently make out with each other in a way that is both obviously insincere and also extremely physical. The intent is not, I think, so much to make us think they are hot as to amuse us---which perhaps works out to the same thing in the long run?

[A White Bear]

Seen it done, liked it. The sort of boy-on-boy action that's rooted in homophobia, like most forms of gay chicken. (I was always turned on by whoever won gay chicken by being kinda into it. Rowr.)

[A White Bear]

I didn't finish writing one of those sentences.

"The sort of boy-on-boy action that's rooted in homophobia, like most forms of gay chicken" is awful and totally unattractive. It's only hot if the dudes are comfortable with it.

[Ben Wolfson]

And he liked it.

[Another John]

Belle,

"How much would straight men's homophobia have to die down to get to the point where hot guys would make out at parties and bars in an effort *TO ATTRACT GIRLS*?"

"More seriously, yes, women think *GAY GUYS GETTING TOGETHER* is hot."

I think the answer is in the question. I've asked the Katy Perry question (is there a difference between you/your girlfriend making out with a guy or a girl) a number of people of both sexes and the answer was always, for males and females - men making out *is* gay, women kissing each other may be gay, depending on the context, but *probably* not, at least not exclusively gay. I've seen guys kiss, too, but I never saw a female reaction to this. On the other hand, two girls making out can easily command control over 50-60% of the crowd in proximity.

I'd say that women have a good amount of work to do convince men that making out with each other will get them laid with a woman watching.

Vector Prime's statement is quite interesting in that context.

[Another John]

PS - If making out with each other should indeed turn out to be an easy and proven way to get into a woman's pants, there will be no homophobia left on the planet... which, in turns, brings up the question in what way female sexual attraction might be a(n assumed) factor in male homophobia...

[A White Bear]

If making out with each other should indeed turn out to be an easy and proven way to get into a woman's pants, there will be no homophobia left on the planet

Do you honestly think that male macho posturing is done to attract women? The entire history of the practice of homosocial masculinity seems to me to be an exercise in proving to other men that one is sufficiently masculine, however that's defined in one's own culture, almost always with the point of alienating women. If men actually cared about getting laid with chicks more than they care about what their dude-friends think, you'd see a lot less of this stupid peacocky violent-hatred bullshit.

[Another John]

White Bear,

"Do you honestly think that male macho posturing is done to attract women?"

I do. Look at whatever study you find about female mate choice and I think it becomes apparent that male status and the potential mate's position on a relative intra-sex hierarchy seem to be very important. I don't know why, and it's clearly a lot more complicated "out there" than in any lab or practice used to interview people, but if I had to speculate it's a consequence of eons of tribal socialisation and easy identifyability of both signals and benefits of the male partner's status. Sure, that's no longer the case, but I think both male and female mating minds are still finding in male competition and posturing what they were looking back when we were sitting around a campfire instead of a feed reader.

"If men actually cared about getting laid with chicks more than they care about what their dude-friends think, you'd see a lot less of this stupid peacocky violent-hatred bullshit."

Hmm, would you mind to elaborate a bit?

[Neil the Ethical Werewolf]

I don't think it should be assumed that men generally have much of a clue about what's attractive to women. Certainly less than women do about what's attractive to men.

I guess it's part of living in a culture ruled by men that what men want is written in big letters everywhere, whereas what women want isn't.

[The Modesto Kid]

Look at whatever study you find about female mate choice and I think it becomes apparent that male status and the potential mate's position on a relative intra-sex hierarchy seem to be very important.

But, this doesn't mean (if I'm reading it right) that women finding gay behavior attractive would lead to a decrease in homophobia/macho posturing. The point of the posturing (it seems to me) is to push oneself up in the male intra-sex heirarchy, only secondarily (based on your point) to make oneself attractive to women. Whether or not women find gay behavior attractive is unrelated to whether macho behavior will increase your status among men.

[A White Bear]

Male opinion means a lot more to [this kind of] guys than female opinion does. That's what male homosociality is--vying for male approval through the competitive exclusion of women. If that behavior is also rewarded outside the homosocial group with sex with women whose value of a man is the same as his status within his homosocial group, then sure, the two are related.

I'm of the opinion that the hetero world would generally be a lot happier if people asked themselves if they're really only attracted to the most dominant figure in the opposite-sex homosocial group, or if they actually hate that person. It's apparently quite difficult to tell the difference.

[Another John]

As for the homosociality hypothesis -

I know this is anecdotal, but still: I did a little test - met a group of one girl and two guys in a club and started talking to the girl. One guy (A) was leading the interaction (B) was his wingman. The woman (W) was on holiday and very much appreciated the attention she got from males in general and A in particular (we had the advantage of speaking the same language so it was easy to talk to W wihtout worrying about A and B).

So W was definitely interested in making out with A but at the same time she wanted to test how interested he really was. So I came up with the idea to offer a French kiss with A for every brief kiss (on the lips but no tongue) between A and B.

As there was nothing to gain for B except for altruism points with his friends he wasn't overly excited, but he helped his friend anyway. So everytime A and B kissed each other on the lips A would get a French kiss with W.

They did this about 5 times, at which point W and A simply wouldn't stop making out to repeat the exercise.

By the way, these were Macho guys from the Balkans.